SHOWNOTES
Today’s podcast is a full circle moment for me. Years ago, when I was dabbling with the idea of starting my own online business, I listened to Jason’s podcast. I learned so much from him so it's a real treat to have him on the podcast today.
Like many of us, he didn’t set out to be a marketing expert. For Jason, It started with a need to promote his rock band. He figured out what worked and soon found himself helping others. His story is inspiring, and this episode is filled with actionable information.
Here are just a few of the things we covered:
✔︎ The power of information marketing.
✔︎ Jason shares 4 ways he found clients pre-social media, pre-email list. The best part is some of these strategies carry over to today’s methods.
✔︎ Find out how to translate your unique brilliance with Jason’s formula; Position, Platform and Product
✔︎ How to distill your message so it’s compelling, unique and clear to your audience.
✔︎ The best way to align your marketing approach with your skills and abilities.
✔︎ Find out why shared meaning, shared value and shared stories are so powerful. (Don’t miss this - it’s the key to creating marketing that truly inspires!)
✔︎ Jason breaks down why we under-value our strengths and explains why embracing them is key to creating an impact. (game-changer!)
✔︎ Get Jason’s insight about taking time to think and create. This is a huge shift in how to look at giving away content.
✔︎ Find out why understanding frameworks is so powerful.
This podcast episode is packed with great insights from Jason. He has a unique way of framing how to step into your expertise. I know you’ll get a few aha’s when you listen in.
Be sure to check out his new podcast linked below.
RESOURCES
Jason’s Podcast: Impact: How to Grow Your Thought Leadership Brand and Business
TRANSCRIPT
Gary Vee:
00:00 Hey guys, it's Gary Vaynerchuck and you're listening to the Front Row Entrepreneur podcast with our girl, Jen.
Jen Lehner:
00:14 If it weren't for our guests today, I probably wouldn't be talking to you right now in the beginning of my online business journey, like the very, very beginning, like seven years ago, I would listen to his podcast out on my daily walks and sometimes I'd have to stop and take notes on my phone, like I'd have to stop a lot. And the show was all about online business and creating and selling online courses and that's really what got me on the path of online business and course creation and podcasting and all of it. So it really feels full circle and special to have him here today. He helps thought leaders to reach a larger audience with their ideas, create new income streams from their expertise and build business models that align with their values and goals. As a consultant, trainer and strategist, he draws for more than 12 years of researching top internet influencers and experimenting with his own personal experience. His experience includes creating multiple successful brands, launching over 60 online courses, teaching more than 10,000 entrepreneurs generating seven figures in online course sales and 8 million downloads of his podcast. His mission is to help visionaries with impactful ideas to connect with the people they serve best and the problems they can most uniquely solve. Welcome to the front row entrepreneur, Jason van Orden.
Jason Van Orden:
01:36 Hi there. Jen. Thanks so much for having me. It's very kind as that's a lot of fun to hear about that background. That's great.
Read more...
Jen Lehner: 01:41 Yeah, I mean it, it just when our mutual friend Miriam Schulman connected us, I was just jumping up and down. I was like, no way. I get to talk to Jason. I mean, it's really very surreal for me. So this podcast is all about people who live life on the front row. They believe that life is too short to take a back seat in life or in business, and you certainly exemplify that in every way. I mean for crying out loud, you started in a rock band.
Jason Van Orden: 02:10 Yeah. As it turns out, that is where I cut my chops as a marketer, as in a rock band figured out that I enjoyed marketing cause I had to figure out how to market in order to get people to care about my music, show up to the shows and buy my CDs. And in the process of learning all that, I was like, Oh this marketing thing's pretty cool and I kind kinda, I enjoy it. And not only that, but I seem to be pretty decent at it. So that, that's where it, the marketing
Jen Lehner: 02:30 Jean started in me. Okay. But I want to dig into that a little bit more cause I really think it's so cool what happened after that. So you, you're in a rock band and you had to figure out how you were going to get people to show up. So you learned how to market and then word got out that you're a pretty good marketer and then you ended up doing some stuff that was like pre online course. It was so online course before even people knew what an online course was. And I listened to it on your new podcast, which we're to talk about in a minute. Jason Van Orden: 03:00 I learned about this there, but I was just so tickled by this. Can you, can you share that like, yeah, sure, sure. No problem. So just kind of skipping forward a little bit in my, in my story, I was a engineer for a few years and didn't like that very much needed to get out of the corporate. The corporate culture just wasn't a good fit for me through a few different things. I ended up in the real estate investing world, but as a market or somebody who had figured out some things about marketing, I was also starting to consult people on marketing. And because I was associating with a lot of real estate investors, I started helping them with their marketing because they need to find buyers and sellers and, in order to put their deals together and find properties to buy and such. So in studying real estate marketing or in real estate investing in marketing, I had come across this idea of information marketing, which is simply, Hey, you can package up your knowledge in a way that allows you to sell it, you know, record it once created once, but then deliver it and profit from it again and again.
Jason Van Orden: 03:58 And this in fact was how I had been learning about marketing and real estate investing was by buying these courses off of the internet. But you know, they'd come as a three ring binder and a set of DVDs or a set of CDs. So I thought, well, why not try that myself? I wanted to figure out a way that I could make money that wasn't dependent on my one on one time. So I thought, well, okay, let's, let's try one of these like seminars or workshops and see how it goes. The problem was at the time I didn't have a list of my own at all. But after kind of thinking about it, what I decided I could do was go to the local real estate investors association who, you know, had a database of people that had been codes, you know, it was like a, what we call a meetup today of sorts.
Jason Van Orden: 04:40 And you know, they had a database of people that they could reach out to about their meetings and such. I said, well, if you let me promote this workshop to your database of real estate investors, I will share the profits with you. And that's how he ended up with a list of 80 people. And when I say list, I don't actually mean an email list, I mean a mailing list, you know, sending people through the postal service. And the direct marketing style that I'd been learning at the time was a lot about sending stuff out through the mail. A sequence, you know, much like we would see a sequence of emails or videos or something sent out online. Today, everything I was studying was about sending out a sequence of letters and postcards and you know, a variety of different things showing up in people's mailboxes.
Jason Van Orden: 05:21 So I planned out a sequence, you know, I tried to be creative with it because you know, especially at the time, I mean it's become a little less so now, now that people don't use direct mail quite as much because emails, you know, so cheap and, and available now. But you know at the time you had to be pretty creative to get it into the inbox and have people actually pay attention to your mail. So I did things like designed a letter, like a four or five page letter that I could print out but make it look like it was like handwritten on the envelope and the and the and the paper. Cause that's immediately going to get someone's attention. Like, Oh I want to read this and see what this is about. I also designed a postcard. I was going on a trip to Paris at the time.
Jason Van Orden: 05:56 I thought, well I'm going to get postcards and I print them out in advance. You know, Kinko's or whatever, you know, what is that called, FedEx, you know, printing store now and, but I took them with me to Paris and bought all the postage and mailed back to United States to these 80 people, a postcard and I kind of a picture of the Eiffel tower on and I had drawn a little stick figure on the top or something. And like we'd love to see you at my direct marketing, a workshop for real estate and you know, just something creative. It's like that's going to get their attention, right. And then there's a third piece, and I can't quite remember what I did, but every time I'd send one of these out, I would get more people signing up. And in the end I sold 25 spots. Jason Van Orden: 06:35 I think I rented for $200 for the day at a local community college, a room that could fit about 25 people. And I managed to sell all of the spots. I was selling it for $25 a piece. I'm sorry, $200 a piece. So $5,000 gross, you know, a little bit of expenses. And I figured this information marketing thing out enough to know, okay, I need to record the workshop so then I can sell it again and again afterwards. And since I was a musician, I had all of the, you know, the audio gear and things like that. So when all of a sudden done, you know, I was like, okay, I just grossed $5,000 on one day. This is brilliant. I love teaching and I can get paid well now to teach. This is great. So I recorded it, I started burning it to CDs.
Jason Van Orden: 07:20 I took all my slides and printed them out and put it in a three ring binder. And now I had a product, but in order, you know, and I started selling it locally because not everybody had been able to make it to the workshop. But that maxed out pretty quick. So that's where I started going online. And you know, I was thinking, well, I need to be able to sell this to people outside of my locality right here. And at the time, there's no video. There's no Facebook, no social media, none of those kinds of things. It's basically the, one of the best opportunities is just forums. You go into forums where people are asking questions and talking about your topic and I post informative posts or answer questions. And down in my byline there was always a, you know, Hey, if you want to buy my, I think it was called the Renegade marketing system for real estate investors or something like that.
Jason Van Orden: 08:03 I love it and every once in a while I would get a sale and I would rev up my CD burner and burn out the six CDs and print out and just take it to the post office and throw it in a, you know, a priority mail, three day box or two day box, whatever it is and send it off to the person. But I want, you know, that only scaled so far and that's where I started studying more and more digital marketing to figure out how to sell this course. And then you know, from there is where it took off into learning a lot more about online branding, digital marketing, things like that. But that's the story of my first core. Well online course. That was an offline course first
Jen Lehner: 08:42 and then that, that's what led you soon into podcasting. And I know you had a few before you ended up, you ended up doing internet business mastery, but you, you had internet bistro business mastery. I mean, is this a typo? 14 years?
Jason Van Orden: 08:56 Let's see. 14 well it's technically still going right now, but I have, but at the sea I was the host of it I think for about 12 years and then a cohost starting in 2005
Jen Lehner: 09:08 to do anything for 12 years. Like anything or whatever. It's like, it's amazing the fact that you did that. And, I have a lot of questions to ask you about that in a minute. But you, so you did that for all those years. It's still running and yet you are starting at, you've started a new podcast. I've listened to the first two episodes. Fantastic. But what is it that you have left to say? Like what is it? I mean, not that you don't have anything left to say. I'm sure we have plenty left to say, but you know, like what, what's this one about?
Jason Van Orden: 09:38 Yeah, so this one focuses, where is my last podcast and name business mastery was, you know, kind of for the person just starting out, you know, a lot like I was at the time in the job, they hated aspirational entrepreneur wanting to figure out something online. This one is much more targeted towards, existing experts. A lot of consultants, coaches, authors, speakers, academics who want, you know, who, who see digital marketing or just, they probably don't even call it digital marketing, but they see the online space and they know that. It's like, I can have a much bigger footprint. I can elevate my authority. I could figure out new streams of income. I maxed out on my one to one delivery of my services. And so how do I do that? How do I build a platform, build a business model that allows me to take my ideas further into the world, reach more people, help more people, have bigger opportunities. And so it's all about building that brand and that business model around a thought leadership based around your ideas around your expertise.
Jen Lehner: 10:34 So what are some of the key points that you're going to talk about with regard to creating a strong brand and messaging as a thought leader?
Jason Van Orden: 10:42 Well, really when it comes down to it in my work, there are three different areas that I work with my clients on and that I teach about. And that, this is kind of the three main areas of thought leadership. And that is, are really any online brand. And that is you've got your positioning, you've got your platform, and then you've got your, your products. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there about positioning, which is messaging and how you're perceived in the marketplace and how to build a brand. So you cut through that noise and are resonating with the exact people you want to work with. And then how do you get that out there and visible in all the right places and to have increasingly greater authority in your marketplace? Then we've got the platform piece. So that's all I'm talking about.
Jason Van Orden: 11:17 Content strategy and how to, how do you translate your unique brilliance, your unique genius into content, into, you know, whether it's videos, podcasts, you know, things like that. And finding the right way to, to syndicate your ideas across the internet in an efficient way. Because you know, we all have only so much time to be creating and putting out there, but it isn't a very important thing to do if you want to be known for your ideas. So talking a lot about the strategy there were there definitely be a lot there and then a product doesn't, okay. What are some of the different, this is where we're getting into business model and income streams and what are some of the different ways you can package up your knowledge and it, and more of a one to many model, against it can be more scalable in your, in your impact and in your income as opposed to being limited by that, you know, trading your time for money, model of consulting and coaching and teaching and things like that.
Jen Lehner: 12:07 Well, so I know there's a different definite interest in this and I run into people all the time who they are a thought leader. They're a thought leader without an audience. They, they're brilliant. They're an expert, a visionary. Maybe they're, you know, in the quote unquote real world. They're a, I don't know, they're the GoTo da. I'm thinking of a guy in my neighborhood, he's a GoTo dog trainer in this whole city, right? Like everybody considers him to be like the guy who knows everything about dogs, he knows nothing about branding, marketing, positioning, messaging and, and all of that. So well, how do you advise like in your consulting, I guess like when you, when you see someone like that they come to you. I don't know why dog trainer was the first person that came to mind, but that's great example. Why not? Okay, but, but whomever, um, and you know that they're just a complete newbie when it comes to this whole other world, they and the learning curve is so high. Like what, what do you do with them? Do you recommend other people to do it for them to set things up for them, you know, do you subcontract? Do you, do you teach them? I just see that as a big challenge.
Jason Van Orden: 13:23 Yeah. A lot of it is teaching and advising on a strategic level. I certainly do refer my clients when they need somebody didn't work on the technical aspects or you know, design aspects or writing or things like that where they want help. I can refer them to people to help with that. But what the work that I do are the things I talk about on, like on my podcast, I talk a lot about frameworks. So these are, you know, when it comes to distilling down what's most unique about your message so that you can really put that forward and have, you know, that strong position and to stand out. You know, I'll talk about a process that I've put together that you can go through to really kind of, you know, certain questions you can answer to pull that stuff up. So it's very much at a strategic level that I like to work with people.
Jason Van Orden: 14:01 And early on, even if somebody you know, is already, establish themselves as an expert in, um, you know, maybe in their local area or, you know, to, to some level, like they've, they've put the time in to be good at what they do and they know they're good at doing it. Often there's at the early phases, just needing to get very clear about, well, what is it that's, that is unique about what you want to bring to the world, what you have to say. And getting very, a lot of clarity early on about, you know, who do you want to serve more of most? You know, what does that audience that you are uniquely positioned to create immense value for? Cause we need to have all of these building blocks early on then to make the tactical and strategic strategic decisions like, okay well what platforms should I be on, what kind of products they make.
Jason Van Orden: 14:42 And, and those decisions definitely come as well. But there is a lot early on of just, you know, digging in and getting very clear about where the business is headed, what kind of business model might work given their goals. I'm very much a proponent of aligning strategy with, you know, we obviously need to align with the target market, what they want, what they're actively looking for, the pains that are top of mind for them. Cause that's how you have a profitable business is you're, you're serving, you know, people in that way. But it's got a very much aligned with who you are and your strengths and your goals and your visions. And so often when people do start looking at digital marketing, they see a lot of the formulas that are being talked about and they see, they see people doing stuff that frankly they're like, I don't see myself doing that. Like that doesn't feel good to me and that's perfectly okay. There's a lot of different ways to go about communicating your brand and being visible and delivering value that can feel in alignment with who you are. And so it was a lot of that early decision making and, and getting clear about things helps to lead to that more aligned approach so that you'll feel good about it. Cause only if you feel good about it will you be consistent at it and get the results that you are looking at it for?
Jen Lehner: 15:51 Yes. I totally agree that we don't, you know, it, it's, you have to be where you feel good, cause you're not gonna eventually you're just not going to show up if it doesn't feel good and then, and then there'll be no success there. But, um, I love that you are saying that and that you have said and I listened to in your new podcast episodes that it's really important that one of the first things we do is pretty much, you know, stake our flag in the ground and say this is what I believe. Um, and that people want, people want to know that like you are about more than just making money. That it's perfectly fine to make money. And of course we all know that we're in business to be profitable, but that there has to be something else that we can share with them that we stand for. But I think what I want to ask you is do you run into situations where it's really hard for people to do that? And, and if so, how do you guide them through that process? You know, like,
Jason Van Orden: 16:54 yeah, I mean when it, when you, we all have these reasons why we start our business and particularly with the, the types of clients I like to work with, which, you know, I have a message, a story, a perspective and expertise that they want to get out there. You know, they're driven by some sense of, of purpose. I mean sure they want to have, like you said, they're making more money. There's nothing wrong with that. But so often there's something in there. There's a reason why they have pursued that expertise and would like to reach more, more people with it. And so like you said these days, like people when you have, let me put it this way, when you have a thought leadership based business, we all know that business, you need to have something that sets you apart. You know, often we talk about unique selling propositions or unique value propositions and things, you know, competitive edge and stuff like that.
Jason Van Orden: 17:37 And, and one of the cool things and most important things about, an expert based or, or thought leadership based business where you are a big part of the brand and your ideas are a big part of the product. One of your distinct advantages is that you know, you are you, and as trite as it might sound, nobody else can be you. And people are going to choose to do business with you because of who you are and how you think and how you make them feel. And a lot of that is rooted in just because of how we are as human beings in things like shared meaning and shared values and shared stories. You know your, when your origin story is like what they are going through right now or when you believe things that they believe as well about the world or when you have values that they align with too.
Jason Van Orden: 18:19 And so it's really important for, again, this goes back to that positioning piece I was talking about, to instill this, to infuse it into your content and your messaging on your website and everything you do. What do you believe that relate as it relates to what you do? You know, what are the reasons why you do what you do that go beyond just money? What is the impact you want to have, not only in your clients and customers lives, but a change you want to make in the world that now that starts making your, your message something bigger than yourself and be, you know, it's something people can be a part of that goes even beyond them. You know, if you're trying to shift the conversation, I mean let's think of like Bernay Brown for instance, right? She is wanted to shift the conversation about things like vulnerability and shame and perfectionism and really topics that affects so many of us as human beings and then have like just been relegated to silence and being misunderstood and therefore, you know, people suffer alone with these things and her work is very much become this, Hey, Hey, let's change the stigmas.
Jason Van Orden: 19:15 Let's start more conversations. Let's normalize the experiences that we have around these things, right? So her work becomes something bigger than her. And that's something she very openly talks about as being a core of permission in what she does. And I think that's, and then also if you also just think about her personality and her sense of humor and she embraces her like Texan background. Like these are all things that make Bernay Brown who she is. And I think, you know, this is the likability, the lots of credibility. She's a professor and I've done all these research and credibility is great, but trust also needs likability. And that's in all of these other areas. That likability comes forward in the brand. And so that's why it's important for anyone who wants to have that kind of brand and visibility to, to really be thinking about that part of their message and putting it out there.
Jen Lehner: 20:02 What if people, what about people who don't see themselves as likable necessarily? That they're the person that they think they're boring or, um, you know, maybe they're, they're very introverted or, not to equate introversion with boring at all. I just meet, you know, like, um, a shyer person or a person who thinks that what they do is boring.
Jason Van Orden: 20:25 Yeah. I mean, first thing I'd say when it comes to, if there's a little, a lot we can unpack there, but let's think of um, for instance a strengths. I mean we all, we all have, we all have certain strengths because of nature or nurture or you know, interest, whatever the case may be. We all bring certain strengths to the table. The interesting thing about strengths is that because they come to us easily, we do think that they're boring or commonplace, not valuable. And it's very easy for us to discount that. And then also society has kind of got this thing of like humility. And in some cultures that's stronger than others where it just feels like to recognize and talk about your strengths is like, you know, bad thing to do. So part of it is a mindset shift of understanding. Know what we're talking about here is discovering where you make, where you create the greatest value in the world.
Jason Van Orden: 21:08 And if your desire is to create something and have an impact and leave some kind of, you know, legacy that goes beyond you, like you need to be able to identify and embrace these things. So one of the best things we can do is actually identify them by getting input from outside of us because we do have such a hard, hard time identifying it within us. So for instance, I have various different exercises that I have clients go through when we're talking about, you know, whether you want to call unique genius or um, you know, this, this like internal branding piece of all of this. And, and, and, and one of those things is to go out and talk to, you know, it can be sending an email, a letter or have a conversation with, you know, five or even 10 or more people, you know, from, from various aspects of our lives, family, friends, colleagues, mentors, you know, and have them give us input on, you know, where do you see me shine the most?
Jason Van Orden: 21:56 Like, where do I create the greatest value? What do you feel like you can depend on me for? Um, you know, w w what are three words that describe what I do best in the world? You know, there's different questions like that you can ask and when you end it can be hard to, to do that. Reach out. It is kind of a brave thing just cause it feels maybe a little awkward or worried about what people might say or, and, but I found that people are very interested in helping out and giving input and you will start seeing trends show up when you talk to 10 people have show up in themes that are in what every person is saying. And so that's one thing that I think that starts helping us look at that and go, Oh look like these are outside sources that are telling me that this is a way that they, this is something they appreciate about me.
Jason Van Orden: 22:41 Right. And so like just as a quick example for me, you know, a lot of people say, well you, you have a way of, you know, when I, when I need a a particular answer to something, either you've probably deeply researched it already and come up with a good answer and it's, you know, something that you feel, you know, an answer you feel like you have conviction on because you've thought through it carefully. Um, or you are very talented at going out and doing the research and finding a good answer. If I need help finding one and I used to, I used to take that for granted. I'm like, well can't anybody is going to Google and search for a thing or you know, pick up a book and sir, but there's just a way that my mind actively likes looking after or looking for information and assimilating and, and disseminate down and finding the, the key pieces that are most important that not everyone's brains work that way, right? They're just, other people are like, Hey, quick start, just give me a little bit of information and off I go. And that has its strengths too. Right. But it's a different way of operating. And so, um, I used to discount that inside myself and then I saw a lot of people saying they appreciate it and clients and otherwise. And so I decided embrace that and put it forward more as this is one of the key ways I can help you and what you are trying to do.
Jen Lehner: 23:51 You know what, as you were talking I was like, Oh my God, I totally did that exercise and I think I learned it from you from your podcast. Yes. And I sent an email, it was at the beginning of my business and I sent an email out to friends and family and I was like that MailChimp monkey sweating, you know like a MailChimp when you send an email and it pops up that cartoon picture of like a monkey sweaty. Yeah, that was completely made it, that's how it feels. Or like when you're going to jump off the high dive and you just have to like close your eyes and do it. But the, but the feedback that came back was amazing because people did say stuff that I was like, Oh, I didn't even see, I didn't even think about that as a thing. You know, I remember people saying that I was persuasive and passionate and um, you know, I would, I don't know.
Jen Lehner: 24:37 I remember using that in some of our early language and stuff. Yeah, that was, that's, that's so cool. And you are so right is that we take for granted, um, those things that we're, we're good at because they do come easy to us. So we don't recognize those as anything special but, but everybody has their own special thing. Okay. Now I want to ask you, well first of all I want to say, I don't want to forget to say this and that is your podcast is so amazing and the fact that you have promised to give a framework with every single episode is like so up my alley. Like I love a pot and I know my listeners are the same way. Like, cause I'm all about, I love to give like actionable tips so that people can listen and go away and like immediately execute something. And so I love that you are doing this and so everybody needs to check out. Jason's new podcast is called impact. Is there a subtitle or is it just impact?
Jason Van Orden: 25:29 yeah, the subtitle is how to grow your thought leadership brand and business.
Jen Lehner: 25:34 Okay. Yeah. So I'll mention that before we, before we end, but I want to, I want to say that out loud and highlight that with a big banner and asterisk right now. And the other thing that you do in your old podcast did this and this podcast is doing this and that is like, you were the perfect example of somebody who really, it doesn't seem that you even, you don't, you don't give it a second thought to give away content that is like so valuable that people would pay for it. Like your content. It was an is so good that people would pay for it. And I, my students asked me, well I'm a, I don't want to do this. It should be a trip wire because this is really super valuable and what should be free and what, what should I give away or you, you know, is, what are your thoughts about that?
Jason Van Orden: 26:20 Ideally, as I was actually talking to, I have, I have a mastermind of, of coaches and consultants who, you know, we talk about the kinds of things that we're talking about here and I help them with those things. And, um, yesterday, you know, they were asking me about, and this all comes back to answering your question, they were asking me about what percent of percentage of time should I spend in different areas of my business marketing versus, you know, delivering value to my clients and customers. So we were talking about that and said, you know, there's actually this third area that you need to make sure it gets in there too, especially if you have a thought leadership based business that so often does get ignored because we're so busy delivering value to our clients, which is great and important. And then, you know, hopefully sneaking some marketing and sales in there to keep the lead flow.
Jason Van Orden: 27:03 And the cash flow going as well. The third area is the Arthur thought leadership ship activities, which are breaks into three bullet points. Create, relate and ideate. So if you want to be known as a thought leader on a regular basis, if not daily but at least weekly time needs to be set apart for ideation, which means you know, thinking deeply and taking in different ideas and reading and looking at magazines within and without of your industry or you know, giving yourself a time, limited amount of time to go on down a rabbit hole on the internet or listening to some reason, but like taking in raw fuel for your ideas and then creating, you know, that's creating content, creating frameworks, creating a packaging it as keynote speaking gigs, keynote speeches, packaging it as your, your podcast or whatever the case. He'll create and relate or create an idea and then you know, relate is, is getting out there and building your network and things.
Jason Van Orden: 27:53 But the reason I bring up that Cree and relay part is if you're doing that enough, you're going to have so many ideas coming up that are, that are, you know, and some of them will be more valuable than others and often you can't predict which ones are because guess what the market needs to tell you. And so I just figure, you know what if you are doing, we need to do is a thought leader. You won't feel like, you know, being this, for lack of better word, miser with your ideas because you know you're going to more of them and more layers underneath. There's even more that people can dig into and pay for and in the end they're going to pay for, you know, the guidance and the support and the belonging and all the other things that come along with your products and not just the information. Information is only one slice of what people end up paying you for. So that's what I have to say about, that's what I say. You know, why not go ahead and give some of this best stuff away because hopefully there's a lot more where that came from.
Jen Lehner: 28:45 Oh, I love that. So are you a morning routine kind of a guy? Do you have a morning?
Jason Van Orden: 28:49 Not at all. Not at all. I am just going to openly say Nope.
Jen Lehner: 28:54 So what works for you in terms of like your own content creation? How do you go about it? Is it, is it random? Um, is it on the back of napkins? Like what?
Jason Van Orden: 29:04 Yeah, thankfully it's not on the back of napkins anymore though. I mean there's nothing wrong with that. Again, this is the area that's like, you got to find what works for you. But here I will say a few things. Number one, you absolutely, I mean, first of all, set a time that the site for ideation and creation on a regular basis because if you just leave that to happenstance, it's not going to happen. Everything else is going to just take up the time and get in the way. And that's why, you know, I did finally get my podcast out, but honestly like you know, I had been trying to do it for a few months and I started letting other things get in the way until I finally focused regularly on it. Um, then the second thing is you, you have to have a system for capturing your ideas at the moment they come to you, cause it's not going to be when you sit down to record the podcast or sit down to write the blog post or make the video.
Jason Van Orden: 29:47 It's going to be when you're in the shower, when you're out for a walk, when you're in the middle of a client call and you're like, Oh my gosh, the way I just said that was awesome. I don't know. I've never, and the way that they just responded clearly that's a thing I need to note this down. Like that's one of my best places that I come up with stuff is like after I do my mastermind calls with my mastermind group or my, you know, client calls client. So it's like learn to notate those things. Your system. We got to know your system, learn to know, take things down. So for me, I mean, you know, I, I hesitate to say any particular tool because it just needs to be something that works for you. But obviously your phone is probably always with you. So find an app.
Jason Van Orden: 30:23 It could be a Google doc, it could be a spreadsheet, it could be the reminders app if you, you know, cause you can speak to Siri or whatever your equivalent is on your phone and have it add whatever it might be. But capture that in a way. I just happen to have, I, you know, I use a Mac and Mac integrates well with iPhone and my other iPad and stuff. So I have a very simple writing tool called bear B a R a play on words cause it's a bare bones, B, a R you know, kind of writing thing. And I just kept your stuff in there and I can tag it but you know, it might be Evernote for some people it might be. So just have a tool, a system and ideally one that maybe you have a physical notebook. And the in your purse, your while, your back, your pocket, whatever that you take with you, but make sure it's something that's available wherever you're at and that it works well for you.
Jason Van Orden: 31:11 And then of course, here's the big thing is you have to have a system then for going and looking at those things and when it is time to create, digging them back up and using them, don't do the back of the napkin and the million different sticky notes if they're just going to sit around and not get reviewed. So, um, you know, you got to set time aside then to actually process and turn those into, something eventually. So, but that's the one of the biggest things is just have a system for capturing and then consistently set aside time for creation and ideation.
Jen Lehner: 31:41 Okay. Just to back up and be geeky for just two seconds. Um, the key, yeah. Is being able to find those notes again. And you mentioned that bear has a tagging system. That's why I use Evernote, but because I think the tagging system is so important, otherwise I can never remember where anything is. So if I could just type in 14 different tags, eventually it'll come up. Is that how bear works? Yup,
Jason Van Orden: 32:02 absolutely. Yeah. You can search, you can tag, you can. So it's very similar to Evernote. It's actually a little bit more stripped down than Evernote, which for some people is great. Evernote is also a great system for that as well.
Jen Lehner: 32:12 All right. So you started with direct marketing and sending stuff in snail mail. Do you, are you back to that at all? I'm experimenting with that these days.
Jason Van Orden: 32:21 I've thought about it, honestly. I haven't done direct mail for quite some time though. I was reading, um, I don't remember wired magazine, Harvard business review something and there was an article about like, here's the new marketing unicorn and it's like going back to the mailbox basically. Cause nobody's doing it now. So, um, you know, a postcard in the mail is gonna stand out pretty amazingly these days. But yeah, I, I have not, other than, you know, sending a thank you card or a thank you gift to somebody cause they referred a client to me or just a relationship I'm trying to maintain for marketing purposes. It's been quite some time. But it is in the back of my mind.
Jen Lehner: 33:00 I think all those amazing freebies that you have on your website, if you turned them into newsletters, like all those guides and you send them out to like a hundred of your best people. You know, Miriam are our friend. Miriam Schulman has had great success doing this lately. Okay. So I've been basically copying what she's doing and it's interesting. So it's still, it's still just an experiment. And speaking of old marketing, is there an business models for thought leaders? Are there, are there frameworks you think are like finished now that we need to just let go of and just be like that? Okay. Goodbye.
Jason Van Orden: 33:36 So here's the interesting thing is I think that frameworks when they're done well are probably pretty evergreen and lasting. But what changes or what might be gone is the tactics that you use to employ those principles or frameworks. Now you know that of course I can't say any frameworks Bulletproof and just kind of like last forever. But you know, certainly when it comes to, well, and I also have a bit of a pet peeve because people love to say like webinars are dead, podcasting is dead, email lists are dead and it's always somebody who wants to sell you the antidote to that. Right? So that's why I like teaching and framework so much and then we can adapt them to whatever it might be. What would, especially what would work well for you, but then what might be working well in the market? But if somebody comes to me and says, Jason, what's the channel I gotta be using right now?
Jason Van Orden: 34:27 Cause that's what's going to grow my list fast. Just I'm going to be like, I'm not going to give you an answer. You know, we're going to talk through and come up with the best strategy for you. But I'm not just going to say, Oh my gosh, Instagram stories. That's where it's hot. That's hot right now. You got to do it right. I mean, sure, you've got some people, you're Gary Vaynerchuks or whatever who liked to be the early adopter and are just doing that so often that eventually they hit something and whatever. But like that's not going to be most of us. So chasing the thing or trying to avoid the thing that might be and yeah, are webinars dead? We'll probably the way they've been done, because that's the problem is that when people use a tactic over and over and over, then everyone starts using exact same formula. I can guarantee if I got on a webinar today, I know exactly what the first 10 minutes are going to be, right? It's like, today I'm gonna talk about this and you're in the right place if you're this person and Oh, let me tell you a little bit about me right now. And it's like, it's the same formula, right? It's like, so stop using the formula, but it doesn't mean webinars are dead. Right. So that's kind of my take on on that.
Jen Lehner: 35:22 I love it. Well, this has been such a blast for me and listeners, I got to tell you, so you're a natural teacher. Jason, I'm sure you know that. And, and so this is one of the podcasts that you definitely need to put the top of the top of your list. If you've been looking for something that's um, educational, inspirational and that will motivate you. Um, you definitely want to check it out. It's called impact, impact. And, if you, want to check out Jason's website, it's Jason van orden.com. And of course I'll link to all this in the show notes. Any other links or anything else you want to share before we sign off Jason?
Jason Van Orden: 36:00 no, that's it. That's great. Yeah, if you want to keep up or hear more about these kinds of things we've been talking about today, they're listening to the podcast or visiting my site and getting my email newsletter. Those are like my primary channels for content creation and sharing my latest stuff. So we'd love to have anybody who's interested.
Jen Lehner: 36:16 Thank you so much, Jason. This has been a blast for me.
Jason Van Orden: 36:18 Thank you Jen.
