SHOWNOTES
In this brand new podcast episode, I chat with Danielle Weil who has been writing copy since 2006 for top online entrepreneurs like Ryan Levesque, Todd Herman, Josh Turner, Selena Soo, and yours truly.
In this episode, Danielle shares:
✍️ the biggest mistake people make when it comes to copy
✍️ her 4 pillars Narrative Framework
✍️ why you need to start with the problem when writing a copy
✍️ why your story should be pertinent to what you are offering
✍️ how adding a “light bulb” moment in your copy is invaluable
✍️ how to know when you should write copy yourself or hire a copywriter
✍️ her biggest takeaway from all of the million-dollar launches she has worked on
Don’t miss this episode and let me know your thoughts after you listen. I always love hearing from you.
RESOURCES
I always love hearing from you. Let me know your thoughts after you listen in the comments below.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:04.030] - Gary Vee Hey guys, it's Gary Vaynerchuck and you're listening to the Front Row Entrepreneur podcast with our girl Jen.
[00:12.230] - Jen Lehner Our guest today has been writing copies since 2006 for top online entrepreneurs like Ryan Levesque and Todd Herman, Josh Turner, Selena Sue, and more. But her passion is helping business owners get the power tools and confidence to write their own great copy. She's all about copy that works without the hype or the Ick factor, using her launch narrative framework to create copy that's sexy, intriguing and irresistible to the tune of over 100 million in saleseven-figures over the course of her career. She has written twelve seven figure launches and counting in the past five years alone, which is why she's been dubbed the world's greatest launch copywriter. And now she's on a mission to share her inside knowledge with anybody who wants to have their best launch ever. So welcome, Danielle Weil.
[01:08.270] - Danielle Weil Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Read more...
[01:11.030] - Jen Lehner I just cannot wait to dig into this with you because I am copy-phobic and you are the Queen of copywriting. And I know I'm not the only one who struggles with this. Why do you think it's important for business owners to have copy skills?
[01:29.100] - Danielle Weil So here's the thing, writing copy is writing words that sell. And it's one of the most valuable skills I think you can have in your business. If you want a skill that lets you sell on-demand, why would you not want to have that skill? Right. So knowing how to write copy, you don't have to do 10,000 hours and read a million books and do courses to be a master. What you do have to know is what good copy looks like, how to master a few key frameworks, how to find your voice and your narrative, and then how to create the assets that allow you to then hand that off to a copywriter when the time is right.
[02:12.870] - Jen Lehner I mean, but what is step one? Because there are so many like, I think I've read so many articles about how to write good copy that some of it, I think is even stifled my creativity because I'm thinking, oh, wait, I have to write like I talk. So I've heard that. But then if I write like I talk, I end up with too many words. Yes, go ahead.
[02:41.430] - Danielle Weil I don't totally believe that you have to write like you talk. I don't write like I talk. I write like a writer. And for better or for worse. Right. Some people are more comfortable with speaking their copy and then going and taking that recording and turning it into something else. But as you said sometimes, then that tends to be too wordy and you have to edit yourself a lot. So if we're talking about step one, because a lot of the advice out there can be confusing. What it really is about is having a really simple framework to figure out what makes your business unique and finding the way of writing, the way of getting the word out there that works for you.
[03:23.710] - Jen Lehner Okay. And are we going to be able to hear about your Narrative Framework today?
[03:27.440] - Danielle Weil We are absolutely going that's what I wanted to dive into for sure.
[03:31.560] - Jen Lehner Okay, good.
[03:32.210] - Danielle Weil Because to me, that's where everything starts.
[03:36.430] - Jen Lehner Well, before we dive into that, can you tell me what the biggest mistake is that people make when it comes to copy?
[03:43.850] - Danielle Weil Well, I mean, first of all, it's not having that narrative. It's not really dialing in what makes their business unique. What is going to get someone across the bridge from where they are struggling with their problems to where you want them to be, which is credit card at hand, saying, yes, I'm in. Right. And getting all the steps to get someone across the bridge. The other thing that I see a lot is people just relying on templates and, okay, let me use this template and move it over here and tweak a little thing, a couple of things and send it out. And what happens when you rely too much on templates as opposed to having a framework? And there's a difference between those two things is that you end up with something that doesn't sound like you and people feel that that shows through. Right. So as tempting as it might be to be like, okay, I'm just going to use this template, plug in some stuff. Alright, let's go. At the end of the day, it's not going to get you the result that you want.
[04:48.550] - Jen Lehner Okay. No template, but yes, framework. So let's talk about your framework. What is this Narrative Framework?
[04:55.290] - Danielle Weil Okay, so the Narrative framework is really, again, about getting someone across the bridge from where they are. You have to meet them where they are first to walk across the bridge themselves. And again, here's the nuance. You're not pushing someone across the bridge, you are building the bridge and they walk across themselves. So there's this feeling of you've laid out the steps, but there's a feeling of empowerment that your client reads. They understand themselves and they're making an informed buying decision from their perspective. And it's just a more authentic way to write copy. So let's talk about the narrative framework. It is four pillars. Problem, story, discovery, solution. Okay.
[05:44.600] - Jen Lehner Problem, story, discovery, solution, okay.
[05:48.290] - Danielle Weil Yes. So first of all, we start out with the problem. We always start with where someone is. And when you can describe someone's problem better than they can themselves, you've earned their trust and you've earned their attention. You'll be like, this person gets me, this person is in my head. And so you want to be able to have conversations through getting to know your market, through getting to know their struggles, be able to describe that. And then the next step is tell your story. I get it. Here is why. I get it. And here's why I deeply understand what you're going through, either because I've been there or because I've helped people who have been there.
[06:33.130] - Jen Lehner Okay. I'm going to put you on the spot. And can we do an example of, like, let's pretend what would be good that I have a bookkeeping service.
[06:43.870] - Danielle Weil Okay.
[06:45.670] - Jen Lehner So starting with the problem, me defining what I think their problem is. What would that look like in copy?
[06:56.290] - Danielle Weil Okay, so first, what you're going to do is start with what the symptoms of the problem look like. So I'm just going to ask you some questions. You are my person with the bookkeeping business, and we're going to figure this out. All right. So Hi, Jen. Tell me a little bit about your bookkeeping business. Tell me about the people that come to you. What are they struggling with?
[07:19.510] - Jen Lehner Okay, this is so funny because if I could have picked one subject that I don't know about, it would be bookkeeping. Yeah. But I could pretend. I think I could pretend. So they come to me saying that they're completely overwhelmed. The financial end of things is just a mess. They're not organized. And when it comes to tax time, they're ready to pull their hair out.
[07:45.860] - Danielle Weil Right. Because they're not numbers people. They may not be numbers people. They may not have the time. A lot of the problems, a lot of the things that people struggle with overlap. Right. Because we're all busy people. We're all trying to do things that are not in our core skill set. Okay. So we've got our person that helps business owners with bookkeeping. So, hey, if you're a business owner and you are struggling with the numbers side of your business, you've got piles of receipts, you've got envelopes of receipts that are faded and you don't even remember where they're from. You're struggling to figure out if you're actually profitable because the back end of your business is such a mess. You get to the end of the month and you're like, oh, I have to do the books again. And it becomes this thing that just sits on your shoulder. Okay. So that is where we start to move into what the symptoms look like. And then we ask the next question, which is what are they blaming for the problem? And what is the feeling that comes with it? Right? So we take it one step further and we go one level deeper and we talk about the feeling.
[09:00.800] - Danielle Weil So here is the symptoms. Here's what it looks like. It looks like envelopes of receipts dreading the end of the month. Not even sure what's happening in your business. And you feel insecure because you don't really know the numbers in your business. You don't know if you can afford to make that investment necessarily. You're not sure how to make a long-term plan because the number side of your business is not as strong as it could be. How's that?
[09:32.090] - Jen Lehner Fantastic. Yeah, I could see people like nodding their head to all of that. Yeah, that's me for sure.
[09:40.490] - Danielle Weil Right. And so then we move to the next piece, which is the story. So if you're a bookkeeper, that's your zone of genius. So you say, I get it. With 20 years of experience as a bookkeeper helping small businesses, my zone of genius, my superpower is helping small business get their numbers in order. And you might want to put a number on it. If you're making up to ten K a month, up to 20K a month, whatever that sweet spot is, the more specific you can get, the better. And here's where you pull in some proof as well. I've helped over 100 business owners. I've helped over hundreds of small businesses. Whatever that number is, whatever that real number is of who you helped. Here's where you talk about it. And here is where we move into the third piece, which is.
[10:30.340] - Jen Lehner Okay.
[10:31.060] - Danielle Weil Yeah.
[10:32.210] - Jen Lehner So we've covered the problem. The second step is story. And let me just say here, this is where. So it wouldn't be good in this case for the bookkeeper to say, I was once just like you, too, because no, our bookkeeper has to be impeccable from the time they were born. Right. Like they need to be meticulous, attention to detail. So their story really probably shouldn't be. I used to be a hot mess with my family finances, too, however. Right. But if we were in a different role, I don't know what that would be. Maybe we are a fitness coach and we went from being morbidly obese to being shredded. Then our story would be pertinent at that point. But for something like this. Okay, I got it. All right.
[11:16.880] - Danielle Weil Right. So sometimes it works for you to have a story that mirrors the journey of your client and in some cases. And I'm glad you mentioned that because it really is important. In some cases, it works against you. Right. In this case, like you hire a CPA, you hire a lawyer. You don't want someone who's like, I was a hot mess. And then I got a law degree.
[11:36.050] - Jen Lehner Right? No, thank you. I want the top of the class. Whatever. All right. So problem, story, then discovery.
[11:45.420] - Danielle Weil Discovery. Exactly. Now, here is where we blow people's minds. Right? Here is where we enlighten our ideal client about the deeper reason behind their problem. Okay. And this is directly related to your solution. We'll talk about that in a second. But this is the big idea. That just that light bulb moment where they go, oh, I understand now why I am struggling with this. And what flows from that is I know something now that I did not know before, and now I have to take action. Now I have to do something about it. Now I have no more excuses, because now I know. So that moment of discovery is really important. And thinking through what that is is going to be that hinge, that unlocks a lot of things in your copy. So for our bookkeeper, I have 20 years of experience doing XYZ, helping X amount of people. And what I've realized is most small business owners have three big mistakes in our example that they're making when it comes to the financial side of their business. Boom, boom, boom. We talk about what those three things are or the one thing, whatever it is for your niche, for your audience, and it takes some time to work through this.
[13:09.370] - Danielle Weil There's nuances to it. But once we go, oh, it's actually this, then we move into the next piece, which is the solution. So the discovery is that you want your reader to go, oh, that's the reaction you're looking for, right.
[13:31.040] - Jen Lehner And then when we get to the solution, I mean for bookkeeping, it's like the solution is you give me your books and I keep them. But it would also be a wonderful opportunity to introduce your "signature method". Right. Unlike other bookkeepers, I offer a weekly support call because you need a partner, not just a number cruncher. Right. Something like that.
[13:54.700] - Danielle Weil Anytime you can own a framework, a process, a model, a way of doing something that's yours and you can even give it a name, like trying to think what it would be for bookkeepers. But whatever when you can name your process and present that as, okay, here are the three things that you need. And here is exactly what I'm going to give you. Here's exactly what you're going to get that is going to solve those things that we identified over here. And we want to make sure that we're reflecting back and making sure we answered all of the problems that we talked about in the beginning. Right. So if they're struggling with overwhelm envelopes of receipts, disorganized, we want to make sure that we reflect that back in the solution, you will be organized. You'll know exactly what's happening. You will be ahead of the game. You'll have a system. So all of those things, make sure that we sort of match them. And we don't leave any loose ends when it comes to solving all the problems that someone is having and what that looks like.
[14:58.290] - Jen Lehner So that part imagine walking into your office that is perfectly organized and knowing exactly how much money is in your account every hour of every day. Like when you start to paint that picture, what does that fall under? Does that fall under solution.
[15:16.140] - Danielle Weil That's the solution. That is beyond the solution one step further. That is the transformation, right. So it does fall in when we get to the solution. It's all part of that. But if we want to put like a little subhead underneath, that's the transformation that happens. That's the like you said, the imagine the ideal future creating, talking about the benefits, talking about what life looks like across the bridge, they can see it. They're at the very edge of the bridge. They see what's on the other side. The thing that is separating them from that reality is that purchase step.
[15:56.750] - Jen Lehner Okay, so do we cover problem, story, discovery, solution?
[16:03.780] - Danielle Weil Exactly.
[16:05.810] - Jen Lehner All right. So let me ask you this. When do we write the copy ourselves and when do we say, you know what, I'm just going to hire a copywriter.
[16:16.370] - Danielle Weil It's a really good question. And the truth is, most business owners hire too soon or they hire without having the right things in place to give that copywriter the best chance of success. Now, I am a big fan of the process that I take my clients through, which is copy co-creation, where we sort of work together to get it done. We're on a call together. We're talking it through a little bit like we just did with the bookkeeper example. And then what happens is I get direct feedback like, oh, yes, that sounds like me or no, I wouldn't say it like that. I would say it a different way. I really love that process because it lets us get a lot done quickly. But if you are sort of just starting out trying to get these key assets in place, the best time to bring in a copywriter is when a copywriter to write it for you is what I'm saying. Like, there's a difference between co-creation and just saying here, please write this thing for me is when you have your narrative dialed in, you have offers in your business that you've at least proven concept on.
[17:25.790] - Danielle Weil And now it's time. Okay, I'm ready to hand this off. And if I can tell you there are seven and eight figure business owners that I've worked with that I know of that are still writing key pieces of copy in their business. They're still doing it themselves because it's that important.
[17:45.010] - Jen Lehner Wow. Okay. Well, all these big launches that you've been a part of, it's cool because you've got this copywriting expertise. But being inside these mega launches that make millions of dollars, you've seen a lot. What is your biggest takeaway from having written so many of these huge launches?
[18:10.250] - Danielle Weil It's going to sound boring, but really the power of a narrative. Right. What we just walked through is really the first step when you're thinking through a big launch, it's figuring out the offer and how to make that offer irresistible. And then the story, the narrative that we're creating around this offer, because a launch we know is a live marketing event, there's a lot of buzz, energy, momentum that goes into making it successful. And the more relevant the story we're telling, the more tied in the narrative is to what's happening right now. That's another piece. So you have a narrative that you can create that is based on your client struggles, and that one is sort of timeless. If you are launching, what you can do is sort of go one level up and tie it into some of the bigger trends that are happening in the world. If it works for your business, make it relevant to the way things are changing and make it relevant to the moment because that's another reason to pay attention right now. It feels very current. It doesn't feel stale or recycled. So I would say the biggest takeaway is having a narrative, having a narrative that ties into and feels very of the moment and making each day of your launch an event in itself.
[19:34.070] - Danielle Weil So making sure that something is happening each day of your launch that gives you a reason to connect with people.
[19:43.190] - Jen Lehner Like what? Oh, my gosh.
[19:45.660] - Danielle Weil If you're running a challenge, if you are adding an extra bonus, if you are doing a Facebook live or an Instagram live, if you are okay, I'm doing a workshop today. I'm bringing in a guest to talk about this. I've got a new video that I've just released. There are all these different things that you can add to your launch and so there's something new happening every day and not all of them require you to show up live.
[20:12.710] - Jen Lehner Yeah, love that. Danielle this has been great. Listeners, make sure you check out Danielle's website dwcopy.com. Sign up for her awesome newsletter. You can also join the Copy Lab community on Facebook and get daily tips to improve your copywriting confidence, creativity and productivity. Get busy writing that narrative using this narrative framework. Can we find this framework on your website Danielle?
[20:41.170] - Danielle Weil This is the framework that I teach in my launch copy accelerator course so if you want to go deeper, the way in is through that program. I do have a gift for everyone though which is 30 of my favorite subject lines that you can go and take and use in your email.
[20:58.970] - Jen Lehner And how do we get that?
[21:00.670] - Danielle Weil That is at dwcopy.com\frontrow.
[21:05.630] - Jen Lehner Oh awesome. And I'll put that with the show notes as well. Well as always. It's wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
[21:13.530] - Danielle Weil Thank you for having me.
