SHOWNOTES
This podcast is with one of my favorite people Sandra Scaiano. She’s a branding, PR, Kajabi and digital marketing expert. I wanted to get her insights on identifying and creating your brand voice.
Sandra has a great method for helping her clients do this and she shared it all. You’re going to love how easy she makes it to understand and implement your own brand voice.
She explains:
What is your brand voice? What’s included and why does it matter?
Listen and remember. 2 Simple concepts that will help you.
Why you need a system in place to tap into your brand voice anytime.
6 Simple questions that will become your brand foundation.
Don’t be afraid to tap into the emotion and energy you bring to your work.
The best way to tap into your genius – Sandra makes this so easy!
You don’t need to do things the way everyone else does. This is a big issue in the digital online space. Sandra explains why it’s better to not follow the crowd.
Advice: trust that voice in your head. You’ll love how she takes what we resist and shows us how to embrace it. (This is HUGE!)
Copywriting advice. Do your own or hire out? Sandra and I both share how we’ve figured this out.
We also talked about the Sandra’s Long Game philosophy. Overnight success in the entrepreneur world is a shiny distraction. Sandra breaks down how she developed her Long Game strategy. It can work for you too.
Homework:
Record. Have the conversation. (She explains this so well, you’ll know exactly what to do)
Listen. Pay attention to the parts that resonate.
Remember. Use Sandra’s simple method to access key phrases when you need them.
RESOURCES
Gary Vee (00:03): Hey guys, it's Gary Vaynerchuk and you're listening to the Front Row Entrepreneur Podcast with our girl, Jen.
Jen Lehner (00:14): Our guest today has more than 20 years in PR and marketing for the world's most recognizable brands and helps entrepreneurs move forward in their business through web design and digital strategy. Her expertise in design, branding, digital marketing, and the Kajabi platform, my favorite ,allows for her to work long term with her clients and serve them in the different stages of their business growth. She's the host of the long game podcast and welcome Sandra Scaiano.
Sandra Sky (00:46): Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Jen Lehner (00:48): Thank you and let me correct the name of your podcast because it's actually the long game podcast with Sandra Scaiano, but I didn't want to say it that way cause I was gonna mess up the intro so I had to say like, okay, right. We all clear on that. It's a great podcast. Anyway. Sandra, I'm so glad to have you here because while you are really a genius when it comes to so many things online marketing related, whether it's branding, web design, messaging, all the things, I want to talk specifically about branding and finding your brand voice and you kind of have your own special method for helping people find their brand voice. But before you tell us what that method is first, talk about what you mean by brand voice.
Read more...
Sandra Sky (01:31): Sure. Brand voice is, it's the message that you convey through all the touch points of the brand. You know, we are the messengers of our brand, so it goes beyond colors and logo, even though that's part of it, but it goes into how you reference it on the buttons on your website, how you talk about your brand and your Facebook ads. It goes to your elevator pitch. It's all of those pieces. So you want them to be cohesive and have your true voice come out. One of the things that we always talk about with this is that your business evolves over time. So at one point you may have one brand voice that you use and then you work at it and you evolve into something else. So you want to let yourself go into it so that you can really feel it and use it and then let it grow.
Jen Lehner (02:18): So how do you help people find their brand voice? What's your method?
Sandra Sky (02:21): Yeah, I personally, you know, I feel like the business owners are always the ones to say the gold. You know, whenever I'm talking to people, they say exactly what their brand essence is. They express it with passion and with certainty. So for me, I have two words. Listen and remember. You know it sounds so simple and it really is, you know, the process is really about having a conversation and talking about what you do, how you do it, who you serve, ask yourself all of those questions, but answer them in a stream of consciousness. Like don't be afraid about what you're going to say. Have a conversation with a good friend over a cup of coffee or a glass of wine. And especially now this is a great time to do a zoom of this type of conversation and record yourself because I really feel like when you are in a flow and speaking you say exactly what you mean and what should be said for your brand.
Sandra Sky (03:17): And then it's going back and listening to that conversation and pulling those gems out and then creating a system to be able to reference them again. So, you know, I always laugh that, you know, you can say all these amazing things. I spend half my time telling my clients, you know, just reminding them what they've told me before. I am very calculated and taking notes and writing those phrases down as they come out. And then I remind them and they'll say, Oh my gosh, that's awesome. I say, hey, you said it, it's your words. It's just I'm remembering them. And that's the really important point is to be able to dissect what you're saying and pull those points out, but then have them in a place that you can reference them when you're doing your brand writing. So if you're sitting down to write copy for an email campaign, pull out what you've written to remind yourself. Like I actually create like inspirational notes for the brands that I work with. So it's that process of, I have the conversation, I listen, I pull out from the conversation and then I create a page that I can always reference and I know what the core belief is and I remind myself what that is if I'm writing something.
Jen Lehner (04:26): So when you say have the zoom call and listen and remember, are you saying that the person who's trying to create their brand voice should listen and remember?
Sandra Sky (04:35): Yes. Listen and remember to yourself.
Jen Lehner (04:38): And then who do we jump on the zoom call with?
Sandra Sky (04:40): Yeah, you could do it with a good friend or a business friend or if you don't even have timing wise, it doesn't work out. Just sit and talk, but record that piece for yourself so that you can go back and listen to it. That's the important part is really being able to go back and reference what you said. I mean for me, I think it's easiest to do with a friend, a good business friend, or even your best friend who knows a little bit about your business and is going to let you and indulge you in free flowing and hopefully they're going to ask some thought provoking questions as well. But you know the type of things you want to speak about are what do you do, like what is it. Say it in the most basic sense, and this is where I think a lot of business owners get stuck is that they tend to overwrite for themselves. Like every brand is not an English lit brand. It should not be written that way. You fumble over the words when you're trying to put this perfect sentence together. This exercise is about just letting yourself flow and talking and telling your best friend what you do for your business. I help people do this and I'm really good at it because I do that and blah, blah, blah. And then that energy comes out and you use those words and then you start to pull all of that out to reference later on.
Jen Lehner (05:52): I liked the blah blah blah, I liked that part. All right, but I can just see like if I got on a zoom call with, I'm picturing like my two besties from college and I would say like, all right, I want to talk to you about my brand voice. And they would be like, I think they would be clueless.
Sandra Sky (06:10): You wouldn't say that. I mean that's so esoteric, right? You would just like, I want to tell you about my business, ask me about what I do like get into a natural conversation and maybe I'm geeked out on it a bit because I feel like, gosh, that's the easiest thing to do. Sit down and have someone ask you what you do. How do you do it? Why do you do it? Just simple questions even. And then once you start answering, hopefully that flow starts to happen from the other person. But like I said, you could do this on your own. You could just sit and talk about what you do and have it be an unfiltered, not public conversation. The real point here is saying letting you flow and say all of those pieces that you really do and what you really feel.
Jen Lehner (06:55): So what we think is important, what our values are, what our vision is, who we like to work with, specifically we do to move people forward, that kind of stuff.
Sandra Sky (07:04): Exactly. The transformation, all of that becomes the foundation for your brand writing. Once you pull those answers out onto a separate sheet, you have them to reference. When you are writing these sales pages and different pieces for your business, like you start to say, oh, I get who I am and these are the words I should be using, and of course people say, Sandra, it's so easy for you and copywriters. You just zhoosh it up a bit. True. But it's a fine tuning. The essence still starts with what the business owner said about their own business, about their own experience, about why they do this and how they help people. We know that whole emotion that comes out of that conversation. And literally my conversations start the same way. Like, okay, tell me about what you do for your business. Just tell me about it. And I don't even ask a question. I just let them roll for 10 minutes and it's almost like a therapy session, but you just listen and let someone go. So that's the whole point is getting into that flow piece where you're just talking about what you do.
Jen Lehner (08:09): Another thing I've been using a lot lately is the Google voice typing tool. So like when I get stumped for a podcast, actually I'll just turn that on and start talking to my computer. Like it does a better job than ever now transcribing, like have you noticed that it's gotten so accurate and don't you think that would be a good thing to like if you don't have somebody on the other side of the zoom call, you could just start just talking to your computer and let the computer take the notes.
Sandra Sky (08:35): Yup. And you can put your earbuds in and go for a walk and use your voice memo option on your phone like there's so many different ways to capture this, but it's about just free flowing and getting some of those ideas out. Because what we tend to do is stop ourselves. It doesn't sound right or I'm not saying it right, but it's being able to pull those things out and then tweak them a little bit or say, Oh, I chose these three words. This is something I kept going back to. There's a commonality there. You know, there is something to build from that. That's a foundation. What you get from this, listen and remember technique is foundational words, inspirational thoughts that help you move into what your brand voice is because it's really coming from the most authentic places with inside of you. You're not on a stage trying to say the right thing and have it come out right. You're just flowing and talking. So it's a much more authentic way to kind of get to the essence of it.
Jen Lehner (09:35): Yeah, I love it. And I remember when you, you yourself were developing your own brand and you came up with the whole notion of the long game, which I think initially was going to be your flash briefing and then it morphed into this phenomenal podcast. You guys have to listen to her podcast. Like as you can see, like she's got this adorable, cute little raspy Jersey voice, but you can listen to it for a whole like 30 minutes to an hour on a weekly basis that she has great guests on our podcast. So definitely listened to the long game. But when you were coming up with that I was like, ah, like that is, that's so congruent with everything that you believe like about business, that it's a long game. Like it's not about the quick hits and the fast wins, it's about the long game. So let's sort of segue into that. I want to talk about your long game philosophy. Could you expand on that a little bit?
Sandra Sky (10:27): Sure. And that whole piece, that whole name came out of a saying that I had, I'm playing the long game. Like that was kind of a joke in a way or a little saying, a motto I had for myself because it was a nod to, I'm not doing this on the fast track and that doesn't mean that you can't use techniques and strategies and try new things in your business, but everything is about the long game. It isn't a quick hit. The 10 years is the overnight success really. Right. So for me it's about doing all the work and showing up and doing those proper things so that when an opportunity presents itself you are primed to take advantage of it and it seems like you moved so quickly in that instance because you capitalized on an opportunity. But really it was all the work you did beforehand leading up to it so that you were ready for that opportunity when it presented itself.
Sandra Sky (11:19): So in long game thinking we can have these surges, we have these ebbs and flows, but it's also what happens in the downtime and in the quiet time of our business that we're constantly working in moving ourselves forward. So you know, some of the long game concepts really are around showing up. You know, you've got to show up in all these different ways, which is instrumental into it because you show up not only physically if you can, if you have to show up at your store or something, but there's that emotional showing up and it's also about relationships. So you emotionally show up for your customers and your clients and your industry because your whole business is about relationships and relationships are a longterm thing, like you build relationships over time so they fit into the long game strategy. So when I started that was really like my saying and then everything sort of seemed to fit, like once I said that to myself, I was like that's how I think. Like that's how I did my business when I was in corporate. It was long game, you know, like things didn't always just happen right away. Now that I'm up in on my own for 10 years, it's the long game. Like it takes time to build up to everything and it's a good reminder because we tend to compare ourselves, our beginning to someone else's middle or I want what they have kind of thing. But you've got to go through your own steps and your own process in your own time. So the long game is a nod to that is the whole strategy of it looks like you arrived at some point but people didn't see the whole backend of what was going on.
Jen Lehner (12:50): Yeah. And I don't know if it's implied in that message, but it's definitely, I see in your work in that when people, maybe it would be like the long game and the big picture, you know, because I feel like you're a real big picture person and when somebody works with you, what I have seen in the way that you work with your clients is, you know, they might sign on with you for a webpage, but my God, they don't even know what they're in for cause they're going to get so much more because you really understand that it's about the big picture. So you know, you feel like you need to know their brand voice before you do their web design. And if you do their web design and of course they're interested that you're able to help them with their digital strategy based on what their brand voice is and what you created in their website.
Jen Lehner (13:38): And you really stick with them for a lot of your clients through the whole journey, which is so rare, you know, I think so many people are like, let's just turn through as many people and clients as we can, but you go really deep. And I just think that's really amazing. And one more example of like how we don't all have to do everything the same way.
Sandra Sky (13:59): Thank you for saying that.
Jen Lehner (13:59): And in fact the way that you stumbled into your business is a really interesting story, especially given what's happening for people right now. Can you talk about that a little bit? How you, you know, sort of what happened that day?
Sandra Sky (14:15): So I had been working in a agency situation where you know, strategy always came easy to me and that whole marketing and PR piece like that was all about a strategic play and making strategic plans. So I love doing that and I was working at a place that I would make the strategies and once we landed the business I would pitch the business, we'd land it and then I would pass it off to a team to execute. You know, there would be digital components and all kinds of cool thoughts and items to build out with that. So, you know, one day I had gone in, I was nine months pregnant and they were closing the company, which was another long game lesson because the reason they were closing was them not having their ducks in a row in terms of paperwork. So always have the contract signed.
Sandra Sky (15:00): So they had gone forward, things happened. Anyway, they closed the company. I went to work on a Friday, I lost my job and then I went into labor on a Monday and at that point I was like, I'm not going back. Like I've turned a corner and I knew I had the strategy piece down. So I bellied up to the counter in my apartment and started learning how to code. Literally breastfeeding my baby and just sitting there nights learning how to code. So I wanted to not only make the strategy but execute it and that's something like I started learning but not only coding, then I learned everything about the technical aspects of digital marketing and how to grow a business as an entrepreneur. So that really came together for me. And I started out even with one idea, I mean this goes to show how you can have one idea and then people start asking you to do something else.
Sandra Sky (15:46): I just followed that, you know, like I followed those requests and that's how I'm in my business that I am right now. But I think what you brought up is really interesting in terms of the, you don't have to do it like everyone else does. And that is the biggest piece about brand voice and also in the long game, like do it the way you want to and how it feels right and it will be the most successful to you and you won't have to worry about not liking it anymore. You know, like it just comes natural. And that's really one of the biggest pieces of inspiration and brand voice is like be yourself ultimately.
Jen Lehner (16:21): But why is that so hard for people? Why is it so hard for people to do that?
Sandra Sky (16:26): I mean the number one thing I see and I say this is that it's the people pleasers like I find the people pleasers have the hardest time. The people who are, everyone is my client, everyone is my potential audience. They go wide. And it's not saying that you have to completely niche down, but you really have to know who your audience is and who you're talking to. And you have to have a specific idea of that and a specific avatar that you've created, a person that you have molded in your mind, who is your ideal client and would then when you start talking to them and also listening to them, what words are they saying? How are they describing their problem? What kind of solution do they think they need? And now you're able to start using those words and applying to be able to solve that. And then that makes the natural progression of them being attracted to you. So people think that they're actually closing off by niching down a bit, but they're actually opening up because they're really getting specific and being able to talk to and have a relationship with that audience and that customer.
Sandra Sky (17:32): And that goes back to the long game idea of our businesses relationships. You know, like I'm a person who in my business, I'm not the biggest list builder, but I've done it in my own way and that's okay cause I'm really relationship focused and that's really worked for me. So think about your own approach to things. So I feel like people get tripped up on number one, who their audience is and not really refining that message. I talked to these people and I talked to those people like that can be, but the message has to come from one to start and then you can expand and go from there. And I think some of the other pieces are, you know, they're stuck on the voice in their own head. I don't say it right like literally I am saying your words back to you client and you love it, it is the same, I literally just took her quote that you said and said it back to you.
Sandra Sky (18:24): So I think some of that is voice in your head stuff to where it doesn't sound right to them until it's kind of processed a bit and broken down. So when they do see it, that's why I'm creating that list to remember work so well because it isn't fleeting anymore. You know you are able to look at it if it doesn't sound right to you, twist the words around a little bit, work it a little bit, you can twist some of that to fit what sounds right to you. But I feel like some of it is, I'm not a good writer, you know and that's why in this day and age it doesn't have to be writing. You know like we talked about recording your ideas. We talked about dictating them into the Google voice. We talked about making a video of them, like just get the ideas out. It doesn't have to be the writing, and I hear that a lot like I'm not a good writer. You say it so much better. All of those things. So I think some of that is hurdles that we have to get over for ourselves as well, like we are the best advocate and the best messenger for our business. I've never met a business owner who wasn't like the best messenger.
Jen Lehner (19:24): That's important. That is so true. And you know, but I want to go back to the avatar thing because I've developed some strong opinions around that and I agree with you a hundred percent our job is so much easier if you know who your person is, who your people are like your job is infinitely better. You will move so much faster. It will be like a hot knife through butter when you know who you're speaking to, then suddenly everything becomes easier. However, there's some of us who do start wide and we cast that wide net. I'm raising my hand over here because that was me. It was, it's not that I wanted to start that way and I think there's a lot of listeners who might be in this boat. It's just you know what you do really can help everybody. Like I was a marketing strategist at that time and I was doing consulting and messing around with creating my first course and I'm like, well everybody could use this course who can't use this course like I'm going to teach you how to market. Everybody needs to know how to market and then I remember also in B school I noticed that, and this isn't just B school, this is sort of like all the courses they tell you to create your avatar and then everybody goes into the Facebook group and they're like, my avatar is a 35 year old woman who loves yoga and coffee and hates laundry. You know, she has two kids. And guess what? Guess who their avatar, they're her, like we create the avatar of ourselves because we don't really know who our person is. So the only thing we can do is create through our own lens, which is also fine. But I felt like that wasn't really helping me. But to your point, what did help, and I wish I would have done it so much sooner, is it was like, okay, I did jump on the phone with some people who I thought were my people and I asked a few questions but also once I have my first paying client, I started just speaking to that person.
Sandra Sky (21:21): Correct.
Jen Lehner (21:22): And just imagining her and guess what, she's remained my person now that I do have a big list and the rest of my list looks exactly like her. So it's really amazing. It just took me a lot longer to get there. You know, I was marketing to everyone and feeling really badly about it just because I kept hearing, you know, niche down, niche down. You got to niche down and, and I know what that means is that when we are speaking to everyone you're speaking to no one that I know is true, but it's not so easy. And I wish I would had these exercises that you're talking about that would have made it a lot easier as well.
Sandra Sky (21:55): You hit on a point though that we had discussed on it's a process like sure everyone has a starting point. We don't know all of these things. So you have to go in a direction. You can't just stand at the fork of the road forever or you're not having forward motion. So you do have to see what works and try things and I always say to my clients, you have to work your business. You have to work in your business. You cannot think you are a business, that doesn't work because a lot of what we do is we think our businesses, you know, I think my client would like this, I'm going to make this course and I'm going to sell it. And it doesn't work because you haven't worked with clients who told you what their problem is and you've discovered that you've molded your solution to that and now you know your person.
Sandra Sky (22:41): So a lot of that is exactly what you said, going out and getting that client. And sure in the beginning you just need to have a point of view and go. But that evolves over time. And that's the long game, right? Like we don't know who our customer, we're very lucky if we know who our exact customer the first year of business. But you work it and then you start to see more of who, you know. I feel like there's pockets and sub pockets, you know, I know who my customer is, but then there's also pockets within my customer that I'm like, Ooh, they're not really the customer for me. And you know, like as much as you know your customer, you can also know who not your customer is. You know? So I think all of that is an evolving process by just doing the work and showing up and having those relationships like the client consultant type of relationship.
Jen Lehner (23:31): Yeah. And it's funny and I never liked started off saying I help women, right? I mean I know a lot of people do that, but I, I was like, again, my marketing could help men or women, why am I going to just focus on women? But what's very interesting is that even when I don't target women and like if I were to do a Facebook ad and let's say it's a live stream and I run that out to like men and women and then I do all the rest of my, you know, filtering and narrowing, it's always going to be that like 90% of the people who watch or click, they're always women. So it's just interesting that that sometimes it happens that way
Sandra Sky (24:05): And that's, you know, you've come to a place now that's very natural, so you're naturally speaking naturally putting your branding out. So I think that makes sense that that happens because now it's just, you've gotten to a point where it just flows for you. It works. You're not uncertain about it.
Jen Lehner (24:22): Right. I'm uncertain about a lot of other things, but, but we won't go there. That part I know and I just think, you know, as we round out the time together, I do hope that like what's loud and clear to anybody right now who is just starting out is that like your brand voice is going to evolve. And even after this year, even way down the road, like it's always evolving, you know, you hope it is right like because we're evolving as human beings.
Sandra Sky (24:51): Completely and your experience and what you're drawn to and the experience you have in your business, maybe you learned some new skills, move into other markets, get around other people who inspire you. So all of that works on us, not just what we're thinking on our own ideas.
Jen Lehner (25:08): So is it your belief that that we don't need to hire copywriters or when is it the right time to hire a copywriter?
Sandra Sky (25:15): I mean, if you definitely don't want to write, get some copywriters in there, but I think it takes time for a copywriter to get your voice right. You know, the more that you know who you are and what you say and how you say it, that's making the job easier for the copywriter. So I think that definitely you can hire those types of professionals. You know, again, I had to get over my own hump of, you know, my mother was a journalist and like the proper writing that I was instilled in me. And now I'm like, oh, I'm not saying it that way. I'm just whipping the pen all over the place. And however I say it, like my client is appreciative that I'm speaking like that. You know, like I've come so into my own about it that now I'm free. So I think you can hire someone to help you because obviously we need to facilitate all these things for our business. But that essence and knowing what you're going to be presenting them is so important. It's their job.
Jen Lehner (26:07): Yeah. Right. And I think, I mean there are like mechanics, like when you're writing a sales page, when you're writing a sales email, there's a framework, there were many frameworks. There's not just one. But there is a lot to be learned in terms of like being strategic and setting things up in the right way. But because I always felt like I had to have a copywriter and in my early launches I did, it was very expensive if you hire a good copywriter. But I think just learning some basic things, some basic understanding of like getting rid of all the filler words. You know, writing like you talk don't have big chunks of words on the page. You know, people don't like big fat paragraphs. We want to lean it out, make it very easy to scan, like all those things like you learn over time. But I loved what you said earlier and that like, I don't know anyone who is not the best spokesperson for their own business basically. You said it a lot better, but it's true. You just have to have confidence in that and that takes time to develop I think.
Sandra Sky (27:08): Exactly. And when you're at a just out and your friend said, Hey come over here, we just bumped into my friend, I want you to meet her. She does this. Like how you would express what you do or say or answer that question quickly in a casual scenario. Like that's the gold right there. You know, like that is when you're comfortable and relaxed and it's no big deal if I didn't say it right. But you end up getting your point across so well and that's why we talk about saying it over again and listening to yourself because you know it is. You live it every day.
Jen Lehner (27:40): It's so true. So what could our homework be for our listeners? What would be like one good first step that people could take towards finding their brand voice?
Sandra Sky (27:48): Okay, I'm going to do the one, two, three. So the one, two, three is have that conversation. So if you're having it either by yourself or with a good friend and record it, go for a walk. Put the air buds in and voice memo it. Talk about what you do. Okay, start out rough. I'm a florist and I deliver flowers, but really I help people on their most special days. I help them celebrate their wedding. These memorable times, funerals, when their families are together. I help people feel at ease. I'm not just a delivery of a commodity. I work with people's emotions and I'm there at their most emotional times, like so that could just be a riff. And all of a sudden now you have some other words that you're playing with. So that's why I really feel that flow of conversation is important.
Sandra Sky (28:35): So just try that, get that out. Second, go back and listen to what you said and take a few notes, pull some words out. And then third, keep those notes on a separate paper that you can refer to. And maybe you go back and you tweak them, you know, the week after. But that way you pull it out so that when you are writing that Facebook post, you can pull up your sheet and say I'm about family and emotional and support and you know, all of these things that you can put those words into the Facebook post or all of that, you know, it's having that to reference. So, and it's a process. So don't purchase off over it. So one is the recorder, two is listen and three is remember.
Jen Lehner (29:14): Awesome. Alright, we got that. You guys do that and if you want to get more of Sandra, remember that she's got this weekly podcast. It's called the long game with Sandra Scaiano, but all you have to do to subscribe is go to sandrasky.com/podcast. Sandra, thank you so much for being with us today. I loved this conversation.
Sandra Sky (29:37): Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
